Curse

avilia · Sep 23, 2008, 10:00 AM // 10:00

I've been using Sabway for awhile now and I'm starting to wonder why there's a N/Rt healer in there. I get the Necro part; it's amazing energy management, especially with all the minion deaths from the minion master. But I'm somewhat puzzled by the Ritualist part. Why not a monk secondary?

Standard Sabway N/Rt healer:
[Xinrae's Weapon][Splinter Weapon][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective Was Kaolai][Life][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet]

N/Mo Healer/Protector
[Healer's Boon][Patient Spirit][Jamei's Gaze][Dwayna's Kiss][Spirit Bond][Aegis][empty][Signet of Lost Souls]
The empty slot can be hex removal, condition removal, an extra protection skill or a rez, depending on the area and the rest of your party. (if you're afraid that Jamei's Gaze is too energy intensive, you can replace it with another healing spell.)

The Ritualist has an obvious advantage with its offensive part with Splinter Weapon, but the Monk's heals are better and faster, not dependant on a spirit, and most important, he can use protection prayers and has access to hex removal. Yes, the monk is susceptiple to enchantment removal, but HB is recast every 10 seconds anyway, so that's not a big issue.

So please tell me, why is it the N/Rt healer that everyone is using?

distilledwill · Sep 23, 2008, 10:10 AM // 10:10

The N/Rt has access to nice pressure relieving party heals like PwK and Life, and the resto skills are solid at 10 spec. Take Spirit Light for example, at 10 spec you get 140 heal, you get the same heal from something like Jamei's Gaze at spec 11 for twice the price. Dwayna's is ok, but again only really good if you can fully invest into the line.

Without having to spec into another line you also get condition removal aswell as another boon heal from Mend Body And Soul (heals for 83 at 10 resto, which is equal to Dwayna's with one enchantment) AND a guardianesque prot from WoW.

As you don't have to fork out into another line to get prot-like skills you can invest in channeling.

Another thing is that Monk skills are balanced (to a certain extent) to take Divine Favour into account, rit skills are not.

Yol · Sep 23, 2008, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by avilia

Yes, the monk is susceptiple to enchantment removal

....and so are the targets of the monk spells. Weapon spells can't be stripped, however.

There isn't really any reason why you can't have N/Mo. The rit spells tend to be bigger heals because the monk ones have divine favour boosting them. Try comparing a N/Rt with a N/Mo during a vanquish and see which one you prefer.

[edit] When I vanquish, I usually bring a N/Rt healer, and a prot monk, so healing, prot, condition and hex removal are all covered.

Improvavel · Sep 23, 2008, 10:34 AM // 10:34

There is no reason you can't have N/Mo. That N/Rt works pretty well in sabs, but I keep favoring less and less monk heroes, so N/Mo might replace them even outside sabs or discord (human monks are a different story, as a human with half a brain will use its energy much better).

Monk heroes energy management is quite bad (even with gole), especially when doing the prot role or hybrid role, and the fact they don't know which are the hexes and conditions they need to remove and those that don't matter means I'm not using monk heroes anymore, even with 2players+6 heroes.

Necro heroes have soul reaping and SoLS. That means even without minions, their energy is much stabler than monk heroes.

Now I just don't know if I should focus on N/Rt healer + N/Mo protector, or use 2x N/Mo hybrids.

WoH, LoD, Patient Spirit, Dwayna's Kiss, heal other, GoH, all seem to work at least in a decent way with a Necro primary.

Anyway, monk heroes are getting more and more bench time in my party.

Mouse at Large · Sep 23, 2008, 11:38 AM // 11:38

As for N/Mo, it's fairly effective to run with Dwayna's Sorrow and Heal Party especially if going for the Jagged Bones/bomber setup.

avilia · Sep 23, 2008, 11:49 AM // 11:49

I hear what you're all saying, but you forget to take Healer's Boon into account, which is the main reason for me to favor N/Mo over N/Rt (Ritualist restoration elites aren't really amazing IMO). Jamei's Gaze still costs a little more energy per point healed, but at 12 healing prayers, it will heal an amazing 151x1.5=226 health. PwK and Life are good party heals, but Life has a 3 second casting time and I'm not too happy to see my hero cast it in the middle of a fight. But without it, MbAS and SL are seriously crippled.

Rakim B · Sep 23, 2008, 12:38 PM // 12:38

the only reason to use monk primary is divine favor, which rocks. rit heals can be used on any prof without losing healing.

Also, hboon is bad

Improvavel · Sep 23, 2008, 12:46 PM // 12:46

There are several reasons to consider N/Mo. Healer's Boon isn't one of them.

Squishy ftw · Sep 23, 2008, 02:56 PM // 14:56

/Rt because Xinrae's is teh sex.

DarkSpirit · Sep 23, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by avilia

I hear what you're all saying, but you forget to take Healer's Boon into account, which is the main reason for me to favor N/Mo over N/Rt (Ritualist restoration elites aren't really amazing IMO). Jamei's Gaze still costs a little more energy per point healed, but at 12 healing prayers, it will heal an amazing 151x1.5=226 health. PwK and Life are good party heals, but Life has a 3 second casting time and I'm not too happy to see my hero cast it in the middle of a fight. But without it, MbAS and SL are seriously crippled.

Healer's Boon is a divine favor spell, and a N/Mo has zero to that attribute. With 0 to DF, it lasts for only 10s so you have to keep recasting it every 10s. And the reason why we bring necro primaries is because of soul reaping.

As to why N/Rt rather than N/Mo? Let us compare Jamei's Gaze with Spirit Light at level 12. Jamei Gaze costs 10e, 3/4s cast, and 3s recharge for 151 heal and cannot self target. Spirit Light costs 5e, 1s cast, and 4s recharge for 156 heal and you can self target. Spirit Light is superior, for more heals per energy cost.

True that Life takes 3s to cast and lasts a max of only 20s. This is why in discordway we usually take more than 1 spirit in the team. Reasons to bring N/Mo rather than N/Rt are the protection spells and hex removals but a N/Rt is superior to the N/Mo for pure heals.

t00115577 · Sep 23, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Healer's Boon is a divine favor spell, and a N/Mo has zero to that attribute.

QFT, i cant believe it took 10 messages for someone to realise this.

But Squishy ftw is spot on, Xinraes is a quality skill.

Cathode_Reborn · Sep 23, 2008, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Healer's Boon is a divine favor spell, and a N/Mo has zero to that attribute. With 0 to DF, it lasts for only 10s so you have to keep recasting it every 10s.

An N/Rt with Life will stop every 20 secs to cast it. They'll spend less time casting HB cause of the cast time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakim B

Also, hboon is bad

A while ago, you could watch observe and find some HB N/Mo's on there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by t00115577

QFT, i cant believe it took 10 messages for someone to realise this.

It also took the majority of PvE'ers months to realize that N/Rt's are good.

An HB nec has access to two +220hp heals along with the energy to spam it. If you can't see the strength in that, then somethin's wrong with you. N/Mo's are fine, whether you're running HB or spec'ing fully into Prot prayers with a different elite.

DarkSpirit · Sep 23, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

An N/Rt with Life will stop every 20 secs to cast it. They'll spend less time casting HB cause of the cast time.

Which is why Discordway team build brings recovery too.

Quote:

It also took the majority of PvE'ers months to realize that N/Rt's are good.

An HB nec has access to two +220hp heals along with the energy to spam it. If you can't see the strength in that, then somethin's wrong with you. N/Mo's are fine, whether you're running HB or spec'ing fully into Prot prayers with a different elite.

Agree that HB nec is viable, but the question is it better than a N/Rt (with maxed restore and maxed SR) for making red bars go up.

KMVRanger · Sep 23, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Heck I would have gone with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

My Livia is great. I gave her some health runes for S&G and she is a healer and a survivor. The AI manages the Sab builds really well too.

I think I need to go to SA (Sabaway's Anonymous) because I'm addicted to my necros' company.

A Leprechaun · Sep 23, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Both are good, I tend to run a standard WoH hybrid Necro/Monk quite a lot of the time.

WoH
Patient Spirit/Dwayna's Kiss
Dismiss Condition
Remove Hex
SoA/PS
Aegis
SolS
Restore Life

But then again as a warrior I do miss Splinter weapon.

~A Leprechaun~

Improvavel · Sep 23, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Leprechaun

Both are good, I tend to run a standard WoH hybrid Necro/Monk quite a lot of the time.

WoH
Patient Spirit/Dwayna's Kiss
Dismiss Condition
Remove Hex
SoA/PS
Aegis
SolS
Restore Life

But then again as a warrior I do miss Splinter weapon.

~A Leprechaun~

Since I mostly play with my girl, we generally run 2 of those. Sometimes the elite gets changed to something like LoD or Divert hexes.

-Lotus- · Sep 23, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Monk skills are way less powerful without divine favor. rit skills dont need it, they jusnt need some crazy energy managment. plus you can get heal and prot in one attribute.

Teutonic Paladin · Sep 23, 2008, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

Monk skills are way less powerful without divine favor. rit skills dont need it, they jusnt need some crazy energy managment. plus you can get heal and prot in one attribute.

Sounds great in theory, but when you actually look at the numbers, you have faster casting, higher heals, and Prot Spirit. The NRt doesn't compete unless you're bringing Splinter Weapon.

fireflyry · Sep 24, 2008, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

Sounds great in theory, but when you actually look at the numbers, you have faster casting, higher heals, and Prot Spirit. The N/Rt doesn't compete unless you're bringing Splinter Weapon.

99% of Sabway builds bring Aegis and Prot Spirit on the bomber so that's a mute point.

Personally I find the N/Rit far more versatile covering prot/condition removal/spammable heals/rez/armor bonus and offense all on the same bar at acceptable potency.Monks simply can't bring that much to the table and while they may be able to heal for more whats the point if it's overkill?

I tend to find the AI handles the N/Rit bar better than it does monks and I also found monks tend to get targeted WAY more than my rit ever has although that's speculative comment after minimal testing.

N/Mo's are all good, I use them every now and then especially in hex heavy areas, but the trend and popularity of the N/Rit speaks for itself, all opinions aside.People have already worked out the numbers.

FoxBat · Sep 24, 2008, 01:03 AM // 01:03

N/Mo boon was used in HA while it was a maintained enchantment and your DF level didn't matter, when holding was more important and hence healing seed, and for most of its life before ritualists got their huge buffs. Right now it's a pretty sad choice next to Ritualist.